Saturday, January 14, 2006


known established albino lines


Although still expensive, $900 is actually a really, really good price for a baby albino female suboc. Considering that there are only about 3 to 5 guys in the world that own an albino adult suboc from the Loma Alta line, a high price is pretty justified. About three years ago, they went for around $2,500 each, and some still go for around $1,200 to $1,500. Adults go for around $2,500 to $3,000.
About the explanation of the different localities of albinos, I could give you a brief synopsis. I already have a page for that is more thoroughly written on this topic. There are three established and proven bloodlines, and none of them are compatible when bred to each other. They are as follows:
1. Loma Alta (Hwy. 277) line<---This is the line that Don Soderberg and VPI started together, however Don no longer works with them. The only people I know of that own adults of this line are Dave Katz, Craig Trumbower and myself. I heard that many of Tracy Barker's at VPI have died off. I don't know if they still have a breeding colony.
2. the European line<---This line is the oldest and most established of the three. These don't have a known locality. They hatched serendipitously in a lucky breeder's incubator. The only blondes that are het for albino (so far) have come from this line. The other two lines haven't been around long enough yet. If I was a betting man, I'd run to Las Vegas and bet my last dollar that your blonde male is het for the Euro line.
3. the Dave Long - Brewster County line<---This is a very yellow/orange/golden animal that Dave Long found. Tracy Barker also established this line. She is (or was) the only person to have breedably-sized adults. I don't believe anyone else has adults of these yet.

Todd Smith in California breeds the Euro line, and he has had several hatch this year that are possible hets for albino. He hatched out blondes, silvers of both patterns, and normals that are possible hets for albino. He had atleast one albino hatch. If you were to get a blonde or silver blonde from him, you'd have a fair chance of producing albinos, blondes and even albino blondes. Todd has just about the best prices I have ever seen for subocs. He sells albinos for about $750.
I'm sure you could get a possible het for a really great price.

Thanks, Dusty, for all the info.

It's not that I'm a cheap man, everyone; it's just that I don't make a lot of money doing what I do for an income. I'm a "stay-at-home father" who does odd gardening jobs and who sells an occasional snake. If I could find someone who would let me make payments...well, then, it's a deal.

Thanks for identifying my Blond, Het. albino.
I know for CERTAIN that you're not a cheap man, Gregg. I was just trying to explain to everyone in my response to you why albino subocs go for so much.

My wife and I have also had to save and make payments for our collection. And I know a lot of people take out loans also.
As for your blonde/het albino, was that snake for sale on Kingsnake around a year or two ago? If so, I remember asking the seller what lineage it was, and he told me European.
That's okay, Dusty, I'm just feeling a little impotant, and felt the need to explain.
Adam Sweetman and Steve Steward boath have adult Loma Alta albino last time I checked.
Adam sold me his entire suboc collection.
And you're right. I am sure there are a couple other guys that I haven't mentioned that own Loma Alta adults, but not many. You couldn't count them on more than two hands.
The only guy that I know of that produced Loma's this year was Dave Katz. Heard anything about Tracy Barker's, Bill?
I have not heard anything about the Barkers Sub oc project. I am focusing on making red and Lucistic. LOL........Bill
Wouldn't that be cool?! A dark-eyed white!
First post here guys, very cool forum. My name is Mike, and with my wife Shelley we keep a decent size collection of colubrids, geckos, poison darts, and ball pythons. Glad to see there are others with the same sickness that we have! LOL I can't say I'd be that impressed with a lucy suboc, as there are lucy ratsnakes already! However RED, that would be an amazing animal!

Gregg, Pray that you don't get the ball python bug, it only gets worse! LMAO Didn't own a single ball until 2005, now we're up to 35 and 4 on breeding loan!
Wecome, Mike!
35 balls in one year is SICK! That's what happens when two herpers hook up. I think your sickness is advanced to the "critical stage". But we feel your pain bro.

I'd like to see a suboc with ANY paint job. I think I mostly like their inquisitive personalities as well as those big silly-looking bug-eyes. So bring 'em on in any color.

I do see your point, Mike. It seems that the market is saturated with lucy obsoleta. But we haven't seen a lucy Bogertophis yet, and I think they would look pretty cool and different enough to be interesting.

As far as the reds, I am getting a male baby in a couple of weeks whose mother is red. I'm hoping he'll either be het or homo (-zygous that is. Don't need any ferry snakes. LOL)
Speaking of subocs looking different from other rats...have any of you ever seen a Cope's gopher snake (Pituophis lineaticollis lineaticollis)?
It looks like their long-lost cousin.
Anyway, they say that Bogertophis is more closely genetically (and phylogenetically) related to Pituophis than they are to Elaphe, Senticolis or Pantherophis. Now I'm a believer.
I'm only guessing Jason at Envy has these, as it seems he has every Pituophis possible. As far as two herpers hooking up...Met in a local reptile store in 1998, been great since. Truely she takes care of the everyday care...cleans, and feeds almost everything. I can only imagine it will be her full time job come breeding season this year. She's down to 3 days a week currently.

My only problem with high end subocs is that it doesn't seem like they are a HIT with people who haven't had experience with them. They have always been tops on my list, but I don't know too many people that are willing to spend 1,000 on a suboc, where as balls, it seems that the starting point for something cool?! That being said, we sold our whole clutch of subocs this year to Japan, so I can't really speak of the market this year!

Another quick note...I've got three pics in the new reptiles mag. March 2006, the fat tail article!
Good job on the fat-tail pics. That has to be a cool feeling.
Gregg Feaster has some of those Pituophis, I know. I haven't asked Jason, though you're probably right.
True you cannot compare subocs to ball bython morphs. But, I think when you compare TPRS's to OTHER rats, they are doing pretty good. I have even seen wild-caught albinos of obsoleta of unknown genetics go only for about $350.
I can't think of another albino of ANY ratsnake that starts at $1000.
And really, that is the ONLY high-end morph of suboc that is out there. There were a pair of triple-het subocs around a year and a half ago that were instantly snatched up when they were put up for sale. They are still a fairly new snake to the hobby. They weren't yet being bred in any significant numbers until the 90's.
But that is why I am working with them, because I have got plans to perpetuate some new morphs and try and get people excited about them.
We should be seeing a snow suboc this year, possibly even a snow blonde. Right now, there is only one albino blonde in existence.
But other exciting projects I and a few others have are breeding high oranges X blondes, high oranges x albinos, albinos X reds, normally patterned axanthics, reds X axanthics, lemon-yellow blondes, mustard yellow blondes, chocolate blondes, green blondes, albino chocolates, etc. Not to mention regular orange and reds.

None of those aforementioned morphs are generally available yet, even by themselves. But they do exist in small numbers and I intend on working with that.

All that this species needs is a few new morphs (which is soon to be) plus some PR like a good article in Reptiles Magazine that displays all of the newer morphs.
Subocs have yet to have an article all to themselves in Reptiles, and once they do, I think that will boost their popularity ten fold.

It will take at least a couple more years, but I'm pursuing this because it is a cool thing to create new morphs with a snake that you already love. It will be costly at first, but I'm sure snows and snow blondes might help pay for all of these little endeavors by themselves.
We are guessing that the first snows will start at around $4000 to $5000.
I may be flogging a dead horse, and maybe they'll be a hit, but we'll see.
I'll post a pic of one of those mustard or lemon yellow blondes.


Do you have pictures of red? Black?
I'm really hoping that patternless animal passes on his looks to his kids.
No. I don't have any pics of them. Mike should though.
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